This is what keeps me coming back to the various efforts of the "four married men" crew - they are not "bought" and give their honest, sometimes emotional reactions.
They also balance each other well, as each falls into an archetypal watch collector POV.
- Tim: archetypal "snob" POV who happens to be font of esoteric knowledge, superpower: can recognise pigskin at a glance
- Justin: fun guy with visceral emotion led collecting POV, falls in love and proposes too early - but we love him for it
- Salim: has evolved from fancying modern Rolex like so many of us (after he realised they are mostly full of shit), balances (or is still attempting to balance) the duality of being programmed to hold a "default" reverence for holy trinity brands vs other brands which are "better" in different ways
I think that AP purposely focuses on a specific type of collector, the 'Miami-type', those who want big flashy watches to show the world they made it.
There's a huge missed opportunity. They have so many great historic references (e.g. wandering hour ref. 25720, or the 36mm QPs ref. 25657) that they could (should!) leverage to launch a new line of watches: something classic/dressy that would complement their current lines which are more sporty.
Would give a broader range of options to build spend history for those who want their Jumbos...
Love your honesty Salim. I agree with you about the Neo Frame, it definitely has room for improvement. I would love to see them do a perpetual or annual calendar in that case shape. Also congrats on the invite from Lange. Can’t wait to see your coverage!
Enjoyed the read - and now I feel like I understand this release way better. Not that I’m an AP guy but a properly new release for a storied band like AP warrants a look. Normal press fawns over it all - the critique here is the real deal - thanks! See you at W&W 🍻😃
I’m newer to The Deadbeat Seconds Substack —came in through the podcast last year— and have really enjoyed your thoughtful commentary and writing style, Salim.
I appreciate the approach you’ve taken here as it feels less caught up in the day-to-day machinations of the industry and more connected to the human experience of collecting. Keep doing what you’re doing!
You know what they say in the medical world - if you are being comped, you have been bought. As much as it sucks to "pay your way", integrity has an intangible value to it IMO. They wouldn't do it unless there was a perceptible value to them to comp someone. Congratulations on becoming "too big to ignore" though!
AP and so many modern releases from so many of the major watch brands frustrate me. AP is essentially a one model brand IMO, and their non-RO releases are mostly, in a single word, dreck. It speaks volumes that they gatekeep any model worth buying behind model after model of awful.
That said, the design for the Neo Frame speaks to me - it is a good, strong design. But you are right - it is too large.
I have a theory as to why this is so. They have opted for an automatic non-microrotor movement. AP does not to my knowledge have any modern releases with a microrotor (happy to be corrected), and thus logically, the movement design (and thus the watch size) follows the need for a central rotor. This is probably also why so many of the "nicely" sized Reversos are manual wind.
Also I will perhaps be a little uncharitable and say that I do not think the general AP target audience grasps the intellectual appeal of a manual wind, or the concept of quiet luxury/a smaller watch.
So they are "playing to their strengths", looking to please current AP collectors, and not add future ones.
Fair comments, Aaron- do you think opting for a micro rotor movement would have been better then? I think the design is okay- but just needed some tweaking to be able to have mass appeal beyond the typical AP customer!
With a more prolonged sit-think, I can't think of a single rectangular movement that has a microrotor. I suppose there must be some engineering reason for this? I still stand by my earlier point that in my experience, AP clientele don't strike me as being partial to manual wind watches.
Please understand that I am approaching this as a bystander, not a buy-stander - don't own an AP, don't really plan to anymore, to be honest. I think you own (owned) some RO UTs in the past - both SS and gold models? What was the ownership experience like? I would imagine at least to a small degree annoying - given how recognisable they are!
Like most, I went through a phase when my imagination was captured by the 15202, but a couple of subpar boutique experiences and the realisation that the company is a one-trick pony watchmaker really diminished the appeal for me. It felt like (modern) Rolex all over again, except with bigger numbers on the price tags. I also am philosophically opposed to buying things I don't *really* want, so I guess I am never buying any of the actually desirable ultra thin models through an AD - especially as the ROOs don't hold much appeal for me - they are large and wear larger.
Justin Hast's RO day date is a really nice neo vintage option and has led me down a rabbit hole of searching for other hidden gems in the AP back catalogue, but no luck, as of yet. The search continues!
I really appreciate your honestly in giving your view Salim, not afraid to offer a contrast to a commentary that can often gush unnecessarily. Personally I think the new AP is terrible and feel like AP seem to lack any corporate memory as to what makes them great other than the RO (which is plenty)
Please keep keep writing the way you’ve been writing. We need more critical thinking in the watch space, especially for experience collectors.
This is what keeps me coming back to the various efforts of the "four married men" crew - they are not "bought" and give their honest, sometimes emotional reactions.
They also balance each other well, as each falls into an archetypal watch collector POV.
- Tim: archetypal "snob" POV who happens to be font of esoteric knowledge, superpower: can recognise pigskin at a glance
- Justin: fun guy with visceral emotion led collecting POV, falls in love and proposes too early - but we love him for it
- Salim: has evolved from fancying modern Rolex like so many of us (after he realised they are mostly full of shit), balances (or is still attempting to balance) the duality of being programmed to hold a "default" reverence for holy trinity brands vs other brands which are "better" in different ways
- Jake: the offbeat collector POV
Hahaha love this! Going to share this with the guys.
Thanks Larry! Will continue for sure!
Congrats on the ALS invite to WW! Moving on up in the world!
Thanks buddy!
I think that AP purposely focuses on a specific type of collector, the 'Miami-type', those who want big flashy watches to show the world they made it.
There's a huge missed opportunity. They have so many great historic references (e.g. wandering hour ref. 25720, or the 36mm QPs ref. 25657) that they could (should!) leverage to launch a new line of watches: something classic/dressy that would complement their current lines which are more sporty.
Would give a broader range of options to build spend history for those who want their Jumbos...
Love your honesty Salim. I agree with you about the Neo Frame, it definitely has room for improvement. I would love to see them do a perpetual or annual calendar in that case shape. Also congrats on the invite from Lange. Can’t wait to see your coverage!
Enjoyed the read - and now I feel like I understand this release way better. Not that I’m an AP guy but a properly new release for a storied band like AP warrants a look. Normal press fawns over it all - the critique here is the real deal - thanks! See you at W&W 🍻😃
Thanks for reading!
I’m newer to The Deadbeat Seconds Substack —came in through the podcast last year— and have really enjoyed your thoughtful commentary and writing style, Salim.
I appreciate the approach you’ve taken here as it feels less caught up in the day-to-day machinations of the industry and more connected to the human experience of collecting. Keep doing what you’re doing!
Thanks Kevin, really appreciate you being here and your support as well!
Thanks for the post Salim.
You know what they say in the medical world - if you are being comped, you have been bought. As much as it sucks to "pay your way", integrity has an intangible value to it IMO. They wouldn't do it unless there was a perceptible value to them to comp someone. Congratulations on becoming "too big to ignore" though!
AP and so many modern releases from so many of the major watch brands frustrate me. AP is essentially a one model brand IMO, and their non-RO releases are mostly, in a single word, dreck. It speaks volumes that they gatekeep any model worth buying behind model after model of awful.
That said, the design for the Neo Frame speaks to me - it is a good, strong design. But you are right - it is too large.
I have a theory as to why this is so. They have opted for an automatic non-microrotor movement. AP does not to my knowledge have any modern releases with a microrotor (happy to be corrected), and thus logically, the movement design (and thus the watch size) follows the need for a central rotor. This is probably also why so many of the "nicely" sized Reversos are manual wind.
Also I will perhaps be a little uncharitable and say that I do not think the general AP target audience grasps the intellectual appeal of a manual wind, or the concept of quiet luxury/a smaller watch.
So they are "playing to their strengths", looking to please current AP collectors, and not add future ones.
Fair comments, Aaron- do you think opting for a micro rotor movement would have been better then? I think the design is okay- but just needed some tweaking to be able to have mass appeal beyond the typical AP customer!
With a more prolonged sit-think, I can't think of a single rectangular movement that has a microrotor. I suppose there must be some engineering reason for this? I still stand by my earlier point that in my experience, AP clientele don't strike me as being partial to manual wind watches.
Please understand that I am approaching this as a bystander, not a buy-stander - don't own an AP, don't really plan to anymore, to be honest. I think you own (owned) some RO UTs in the past - both SS and gold models? What was the ownership experience like? I would imagine at least to a small degree annoying - given how recognisable they are!
Like most, I went through a phase when my imagination was captured by the 15202, but a couple of subpar boutique experiences and the realisation that the company is a one-trick pony watchmaker really diminished the appeal for me. It felt like (modern) Rolex all over again, except with bigger numbers on the price tags. I also am philosophically opposed to buying things I don't *really* want, so I guess I am never buying any of the actually desirable ultra thin models through an AD - especially as the ROOs don't hold much appeal for me - they are large and wear larger.
Justin Hast's RO day date is a really nice neo vintage option and has led me down a rabbit hole of searching for other hidden gems in the AP back catalogue, but no luck, as of yet. The search continues!
No need to change anything. This is a great blog!
Thanks for the support, John!
Top Stuff, Salim. Loving this true content.
You were on top form hosting the latest pod. Sorry I voted for Justin’s collection and not yours 😅
Haha- you’re forgiven!
I really appreciate your honestly in giving your view Salim, not afraid to offer a contrast to a commentary that can often gush unnecessarily. Personally I think the new AP is terrible and feel like AP seem to lack any corporate memory as to what makes them great other than the RO (which is plenty)
Completely agree- just feels like they’re chasing the short term trends rather than making a real change back to their original greatness